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Interesting reading
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zoomzoom
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:29 pm 
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It's about a dead village at the top of the mountain and seems to give the impression this is what the villages in BG are like, which is far from true.
The bit I found particularly interesting is about the migrants.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41109572
  
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JJON
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:13 am 
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The bit about the migrants comes from the deputy PM who, I'm guessing, has as much as much say as Nick Clegg during the UK coalition Laughing I can't imagine that his views are representative of BG?  
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zoomzoom
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:32 am 
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I disagree. If the deputy PM's views were not representative of BG, why did they build a razor wire fence to keep them out?  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:33 am 
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JJON wrote:
I can't imagine that his views are representative of BG?


Think again.....
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JJON
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:08 am 
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zoomzoom wrote:
I disagree. If the deputy PM's views were not representative of BG, why did they build a razor wire fence to keep them out?


To stop people entering the country illegally, of course.
  
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JJON
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:28 am 
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Lazy article, it doesn't differentiate between migrants and refugees.  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:23 am 
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Lazy? Very Happy As far as most Bulgarians are concerned, there is no difference...

Of course, it depends if you consider "migrants" to include "expats" - and of course exactly how you might define an expat*. As a rule of thumb, and perhaps luckily for many of us Wink , people here don't include what one might loosely call European Incomers under the heading of Migrants but neither do they differentiate between migrants and "refugees", or indeed immigrants. There are enough domestic problems already with the local "Ethnics" and in addition a certain resurgence of Islamism that is somewhat worrying. Fortunately, depending on your point of view, Bulgarians are still able - and allowed - to say pretty much what they think and believe, unlike those "fortunate" enough to live in more "enlightened" lands where the Thought Police reign supreme and Free Speech is synonymous with Socialist Censorship. Sad

There was a discussion HERE About Migrants/Refugees/Whatever Term You Prefer.

*There was also a discussion on this Forum a while back about the difference between expat and immigrant but I'm too lazy to look it up.... Cool
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Jake
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:38 am 
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As said, at least here (BG) you can say what you think without the thought police descending like the proverbial ton(or is it tonne?) of bricks. As most of the non European migrants/refugees/whatever are looking for economic gain, rather than fleeing a life threatening situation, Bulgaria doesn't hold a great attraction for them, a clue perhaps to other 'give them everything' countries that are feeling a little overrun at present.
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Cliff
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:09 pm 
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JJON wrote:
zoomzoom wrote:
I disagree. If the deputy PM's views were not representative of BG, why did they build a razor wire fence to keep them out?


To stop people entering the country illegally, of course.


Its more than a Bulgarian border, its an EU border, no doubt with plenty of un-named support from other quarters.
  
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JJON
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Jake wrote:
As said, at least here (BG) you can say what you think without the thought police descending like the proverbial ton(or is it tonne?) of bricks. As most of the non European migrants/refugees/whatever are looking for economic gain, rather than fleeing a life threatening situation, Bulgaria doesn't hold a great attraction for them, a clue perhaps to other 'give them everything' countries that are feeling a little overrun at present.


Most? Not sure I agree with that, each to their own. Don't most EU migrants to Bulgaria come partly expecting economic gain, whether it be in the form of their pensions going further or taking advantage of lower costs in BG?
  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Well, it's always easy to define terms in the way that reflects what one wants them to mean and then produce the proverbial rabbit out of the hat with a fine flourish of "adjusted logic". One could regard EU citizens exercising their legal right to live in another EU member state as "economic migrants", should one wish to shoe-horn the term to fit into a pre-formed opinion. It's then just a short step to conflate a German pensioner looking to make her pension go a little further, while bringing economic benefits to her new host country, with someone who illegally enters that same country intending to travel onwards to some illusory Shangri-la where bennies and medical treatment grow on trees while the black economy offers a nice little wad of additional cash to trouser every week. So no - there's absolutely no moral equivalence whatsoever between the two types of "migrant", regardless of how one might play with the semantics to suit one's notion of how the world should be.

The problem is simple and it's that sympathy and charity have their bounds. One "refugee family" is all well and good but when it comes to millions, with a plethora of "dependants" waiting in the wings then it becomes more an attack on the indigenous culture and way of life. Unfortunately, the Bleeding Hearts feel that THEIR responsibility ends once they've propped the back-door open; it's then down to "Society" to pick up the slack and "do the right thing". It seems that even bomb- and truck-attacks can be rationalised away - as long as it's someone else's family on the receiving end, of course. Rolling Eyes

I can't see that Europe has any need, or use, for "migrants" with no discernible skills, no common culture, a manifest disregard for the rule of law and a propensity for employing violence to get what they want. The misguided fools who are prepared to welcome them in the name of "solidarity" while turning a blind eye to the damage they are doing are, in my view, not much better than ISIS (or whatever we're supposed to call them this week) who rampage across the landscape rewriting history, destroying the works of ancient civilisations and trying to stamp out the local culture while replacing it with mind-control and a rigid invented "orthodoxy". At least ISIS have the brains to destroy other peoples' cultures rather than their own. Cool

So, let's rephrase the question: do we need migrants/refugees/jihadis (always assuming that we can sort the wheat from the chaff) who are fleeing from the mess that they have made in their own countries (and I have no more time for Bush and Bliar than anyone else has) with their millenia-old tribal and religious wars, over-population, appalling use of resources, corruption, ignorance and barbarism? Do we need to see our people stabbed, run over and blown to pieces by the "guests" foisted upon us by well-meaning idiots? Are European Values and Culture worth preserving - and fighting for, if necessary? All pretty easy questions to answer, without trying to play semantic games, don't you think?

It seems to me that we're living in those "interesting times" of the Chinese curse and the problems are NOT going to be solved by wishy-washy liberal slogans or PC claptrap. Here in the Balkans, we've seen more than our fair share of what happens when people turn a blind eye to reality and just hope that things will somehow work themselves out. Judging from our present madness, the Gods are most certainly out to destroy us - or more properly, to get us to do the job ourselves.

As Powell should have spelled out in 1968: "Bella, horrida bella, Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine cerno." I wonder what he would think if he could see us now....
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JJON
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:48 pm 
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Quote:
Well, it's always easy to define terms in the way that reflects what one wants them to mean and then produce the proverbial rabbit out of the hat with a fine flourish of "adjusted logic"


Economic migrant: a person who moves from one region, place, or country to another in order to improve his or her standard of living.

It seems that some people just can't bare to think of themselves as economic immigrants. Smile
  
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Tabbul
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:35 pm 
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JJON wrote:

Economic migrant: a person who moves from one region, place, or country to another in order to improve his or her standard of living.


So by that definition someone who moves from Bolton (place) to London (place ) for a better paid job, is an economic migrant?

I would say you're being a little simplistic and ignoring the reality, conveniently!
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:56 pm 
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JJON wrote:
It seems that some people just can't bare to think of themselves as economic immigrants. Smile


For the emotional stability of my neighbours, I personally try to bare myself as little as possible these days, at least in public. There are many definitions of "economic migrants" - a lot of them both politically-loaded and very handy to "prove" that black is white, especially when viewed through rose-tinted spectacles.

Since you, I imagine, have no idea of the reasons why people happen to have chosen to live in Bulgaria, for example, and likewise know nothing of their financial circumstances, it seems a gross impertinence and arrogant presumption to think that you know why they happen to have chosen to settle here. They may indeed be here for the purposes of stretching their pensions or buying the kind of property that they couldn't afford "back home" but to trot out some silly Googled "definition" to demonstrate that this shows some sort of equivalence between someone exercising their legal rights and another person who illegally invades another country in order to lie even about how old they are, where they are from and what they have come for is simply childish.

As the macho characters in what passes for entertainment these days would say: "Is that all you've got?" Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:15 pm 
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It does not bother me if I'm termed an economic migrant, I am what I am. What I am not is a religious fanatic, sympathiser or preacher. Neither do I intend to organise or live in a getto and G** forgive I certainly do not wish to bring in my nearest kin.  
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