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Right or Wrong?
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:54 am 
Post subject: Right or Wrong?
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It will be Fifty Years Ago Next Year: was he deluded - or prescient? Somehow I doubt that even he could have imagined the state of much of Europe today.....
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walkage
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:06 am 
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I thought he was right and many people I knew also thought the same. Shame no one listened. Confused  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:18 am 
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There's none so blind as those who will not see....
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Tabbul
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:29 am 
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It was obvious back then and it should have been dealt with back then but it wasn't

"we made our bed now we must lie in it" As lumpy as that might be.
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:34 am 
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Unfortunately, the bed is being continuously un-made, even while people are trying to get used to the latest bumps...
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Cliff
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:44 pm 
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It would be interesting to see a mathematical model of the demographic future of the UK based on the past 50 years, but know one would believe it because it would be politically wrong or even blasphemous.  
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Xanthos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Brig (Ret) John Enoch Powell MBE was a very honourable gentleman of his era, apart from being ex 'Green Slime', which could be excused given the needs of WW2, he also achieved the fastest promotion to Brigadier from the ranks and was the youngest 1* at that time. Like Eisenhower he never held a combat command and spent much of his military career as a staff officer in N Africa and later in India.

His multilingual gifts extended to competence in 12 languages (ancient and modern) and his academic credentials as the youngest pre war professor of Classics at 25, confirmed his considerable intellect. His choice in politics came later and was ideologically driven, with Nietzsche providing considerable influence to his earlier thinking (although he did vote Labour in 1945), and his parliamentary career first as a Conservative MP in 1950 and later as an Ulster Unionist MP in 1974 spoke volumes of his principled approach, including his decline to be appointed to the 'other place', given his earlier opposition vote on the future of the Lords.

The 1968 ('Rivers of Blood') speech for which he's best remembered, was not perhaps his greatest contribution to politics nor perhaps the most controversial, but it effectively placed a ceiling on further political progression. Interestingly, he made a virtually identical speech 2 months earlier in his constituency, but it had little impact and was not reported in the media. He also once said "all political lives, unless they are cut off in midstream by some happy juncture, end in failure"! A more prescient remark for the likes of Thatcher, Blair, Brown, the Milibands and CMD perhaps!

Having lit the fires of Euro Scepticism in the '70s and kept it burning for the next two decades, Powell rightly identified that the government had betrayed the British people by joining a political project in Europe, having sold it to the country as an economic one, and would betray them again! This old Telegraph article from 2014 is quite balanced and captures some nuances of the man, and the reference to his statement about the Mau Mau was illustrative of his humanity and principled approach of 'right or wrong' - "we must be consistent with ourselves everywhere"
http://tinyurl.com/yaaycz9j
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Last edited by Xanthos on Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tabbul
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Cliff wrote:
It would be interesting to see a mathematical model of the demographic future of the UK based on the past 50 years, but know one would believe it because it would be politically wrong or even blasphemous.


Or even racist to suggest one.
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Xanthos
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:30 pm 
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Cliff wrote:
It would be interesting to see a mathematical model of the demographic future of the UK based on the past 50 years, but know one would believe it because it would be politically wrong or even blasphemous.

Whilst it is a recent piece of academic work and not a government publication, it may answer your query. It was however, based on ONS data and it offers a hypothesis for UK demography by 2051. It stems from actual data changes occurring between the 2001 and 2011 census, whilst compared to previous projections for the same period. Check out Table 10.5 noting this only encompasses England & Wales -
http://tinyurl.com/y7zwkyyx

From this historic analysis the projections were established for 2051, which will be checked again, once the 2021 census data is published by the ONS. Brexit will likely feature in skewing current projections, but it's just one of the variables. As Franklin opined - "nothing in this world can be said to be certain, except death and taxes"!!
  
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Moscow_Wolf
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:44 am 
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As interesting as the thread is from a historical context, nothing is going to change insofar as, no decisions made 40+ years ago are going to be reversed. For me, it is like changing from driving in the UK on the left to driving on the right, it can be done, but nobody is going to enforce that change. The wrong decisions were made when they were made and now we have to live with them. Rolling Eyes  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:28 am 
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The problem, in my view, is two-fold:

1 - the "Enoch Was Right" Brigade was/is composed largely of folk who wouldn't have understood most of what he said and who got most of their "knowledge" from the red-tops, the "Rivers of Blood" speech being perhaps the best example. Somehow I doubt that they would have had any idea of what the Tiber was and the only Sybil they'd have heard of would not be arriving on their TV screens for nearly a decade and then courtesy of Fawlty Towers. I can't help but feel that Orwell would decide that he'd backed the wrong horse if he could see British society today....

2 - the ridiculous xenophobia of the "They're taking our jobs" bunch, who are too indolent to work unless they get a lot more than their current bennies, is totally misplaced. The UK needs immigration but it needs immigrants who have the correct skills and who are prepared to assimilate into British culture and adopt British values - and bl@@dy well speak English!

Of course, Powell would never get anywhere in today's multi-culti PC Britain but that doesn't mean that he was "wrong" in 1968, or indeed today. His concerns that the race relations "industry" would be a one-way street that simultaneously disenfranchised the man in the street and robbed him of the right to voice his views and feelings were well-founded and indeed prescient. It's only sad that the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction and landed the world with The Orange POTUS.
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Xanthos
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Seedy wrote:
The problem, in my view, is two-fold:

1 - the "Enoch Was Right" Brigade was/is composed largely of folk who wouldn't have understood most of what he said and who got most of their "knowledge" from the red-tops, the "Rivers of Blood" speech being perhaps the best example. Somehow I doubt that they would have had any idea of what the Tiber was and the only Sybil they'd have heard of would not be arriving on their TV screens for nearly a decade and then courtesy of Fawlty Towers. I can't help but feel that Orwell would decide that he'd backed the wrong horse if he could see British society today....

2 - the ridiculous xenophobia of the "They're taking our jobs" bunch, who are too indolent to work unless they get a lot more than their current bennies, is totally misplaced. The UK needs immigration but it needs immigrants who have the correct skills and who are prepared to assimilate into British culture and adopt British values - and bl@@dy well speak English!

Of course, Powell would never get anywhere in today's multi-culti PC Britain but that doesn't mean that he was "wrong" in 1968, or indeed today. His concerns that the race relations "industry" would be a one-way street that simultaneously disenfranchised the man in the street and robbed him of the right to voice his views and feelings were well-founded and indeed prescient. It's only sad that the pendulum has swung in the opposite direction and landed the world with The Orange POTUS.


You'll be delighted to learn about the new BBC World Service programme, it's English, but not necessarily as you know it! My analysis is that Trumppotus is bigly fluent in this -
http://tinyurl.com/y7qavjb7
As a professor of language, namely ancient Greek, I'm certain the late Enoch Powell would have had an academic interest too.

I also suspect Enoch would have fared fairly well in terms of present day society in England, especially in his Wolverhampton birthplace with his comprehensive grasp of Urdu! The irony is that he was offered a senior command in the Indian Army at the end of WW2, but declined, because of his aspiration to become Viceroy of India. However, independence removed that option, and as they say the rest is history!
  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Actually, I was pretty fluent in Tok Pishin once upon a time but sadly would be hard pressed to recall any of it these days... Very Happy

Mind you, it's still more comprehensible than some of the stuff that one might hear on the streets of Sunny Beach when the gates of Perfidious Albion are flung wide every summer to release the Great Unwashed for their annual "Embarrass The Nation" bacchanalia.... Rolling Eyes
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Xanthos
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Seedy wrote:
Actually, I was pretty fluent in Tok Pishin once upon a time but sadly would be hard pressed to recall any of it these days... Very Happy

Mind you, it's still more comprehensible than some of the stuff that one might hear on the streets of Sunny Beach when the gates of Perfidious Albion are flung wide every summer to release the Great Unwashed for their annual "Embarrass The Nation" bacchanalia.... Rolling Eyes


Some may recall the 'early morning race for the sun-lounger by the pool' on the Costa Brava of the 60's/70's when hungover Brits invariably lost to better prepared German holidaymakers utilising the 'towel before breakfast trick'! As a youngster I recall earning extra pocket money from my parents and their friends for ensuring reallocation of sun-lounger resources before brekkers! Wink

Nowadays different tactics are employed by the 'Brits abroad' crew, who're no longer bounded by the rules of cricket, but more likely to win a race they didn't know they'd entered! Usually collapsing paralytic on said sun-loungers in the wee hours, invariably covered in their own puke and/or still wearing a condom (frequently split after mf/mm/mfm indulgences), resultant from the alcohol/drug fuelled all-night binge session!
http://tinyurl.com/yb2pryve

Meanwhile, as suggested the 'Brits Abroad' mob are offering up their own unique style of cultural exchange at Sunny Beach and similar venues elsewhere in Europe! English is optional, whilst alcohol is mandatory!
http://tinyurl.com/yabwezyp

Even avoiding the hazards of gang culture with its own territorial linguistic slants North or South of the river, transiting London still requires a language card to decipher the MLE amongst the multicultural melee!
http://tinyurl.com/y8pn6dlf
  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:03 pm 
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I'd say that describing Fatboy Slim and Pete Tong as "the world’s top artists" is a sure sign of how far English has been debased, so MLE is no more than the icing on the cake.

It's no secret that UK lexicographers need to justify their existence and hence "study" the drivelling of the uneducated and the feeble-minded in order to boost the number of farcical articles required to maintain their dubious academic status. Likewise, the country which gave the world inverse snobbery, the "right" to unwarranted self esteem, and lynch mobs in illiterate pursuit of paediatricians has to include every possible childish verbal fatuity in its dictionaries lest an accusation of failingin its duty to muliti-culti inclusivity. A plague on all their houses, say I....
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