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europe talks
 
 
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scasparz
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:24 pm 
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A few weeks ago participated a supposedly EU funded questionnaire on some local (GR) site. Did so, just for the sake of it. Participants were asked to provide some personal info, had been hesitant there, eventually had it provided. Was not sure this had been a wise idea.

It turned out, in reality this questionnaire was run by die Zeit, a moderate centre-left German weekly. A few days later was contacted by Zeit on mail, told they had found a BG lady from Sophia with opposing views, through the use of some AI driven software, plus they would have us come in contact to debate. At that point looked like a burden to me.

Then, following some prior consultation, we were both interviewed by a German journalist coupled with a photographer at our homes in BG and GR respectively. Interviews were published by die Zeit in German as well as in English.

Eventually the BG lady and me arranged to be met midway at Sandanski yesterday. In their turn, the organisers had arranged for the presence of a tv crew, nothing against these chaps, they had been very professional, nevertheless hate been staged. Found the BG lady had been well educated with positions that however differing from mine she could defend with reason. Mrs Iliycheva had been right in the end on that actually this had not been a debate, rather a friendly talk between neighbours. Can concur without reservations.

Turned out to be a good day.





cheers mates
  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:36 pm 
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I wish I'd known - I'd have come down to buy you a beer afterwards... Wink
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scasparz
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:18 pm 
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Anyway had mine -a Tuborg- , at one of the numerous cafés by the bank of some stream at Sandanski's centre. 2 man down


Had been kind of refreshing.
Thnx mate.
  
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tonytg806
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:56 pm 
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Just read the English version and it was an interesting read, so thank you for that.
We share a common value, I'm proud to be a European,but certainly not British. Our politicians have made us the laughing stock of Europe.
Boris Johnson for prime minister? It's getting more like Monty Python by the minute....
  
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scasparz
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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2019 8:23 pm 
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IMHO there is nothing wrong with being either English, Bulgarian, Greek or whatever tonytg806. If our politicians are screw ups and in most cases they seem to be, then it is shame for them, not for us mate. Under democracy, we are supposedly provided with a choice, yet although we choose freely among them, the overall selection is made by others, long before our own.

Our democracies, representative democracies as they are called, tend to hijack our votes for the middle men that is our MPs, who in turn elect our governments. Yet contemporary technology means, such as the web provide with better alternatives, making this kind of democracy deprecated and obsolete, kind of a seventeenth century relic.

In my country, the elites have managed to control everything starting from the media -whether electronic or printed-, the banking sector, the police, the legal establishment and of course the politicians who are the obvious culprit of our misfortunes, merely pathetic accomplishes.

The arrogance of our elites has been preposterous. They live in their own ghetto called Ekali, growing their art collections, beyond reach, above the Law, and of course prospering from the meltdown they are absolutely responsible for. Recently one of them, a well known shipping magnate, who also owns one of the country's most influential newspapers, in addition to a successful state-wide TV network, in addition to a popular football club, had been swaggering before the cameras of his own network that "we (the elites) own this country". Then again, who had it sold to them, when was that and for how much?

In a few months, fresh elections are to take place. Voters will be presented the choice between a liar and a kleptocrat. Either way the elites win.

Want my country back, mates. For it is mine after all, not theirs. Period.




cheers all
  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:58 am 
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Mr S - I wonder if you'd care to give us a little more insight into your exchange of views with Ms Iliycheva. My impression, based admittedly on scant information, is that she is probably the scion of some Communist family and certainly holds left-wing views, which would predispose her to be pro-EU (as long as they never ask questions about what her parents got up to during the days of Bai Tosha and where they might have obtained any cash/business(es) that they happen to own. Even her family name, Iliycheva, indicates that either her own family or that of her husband are or "were" Commie supporters.

I have to confess that I'm in two minds about the mess that Greece is allegedly in thanks to "the elites". Yes, the country is in dire straits but the whole nation has to face up to being at least partly responsible for that: when people at the top were enriching themselves they threw quite a basketful of bones to those further down the pecking order who busily chewed on them with only a very few people questioning where they came from and whether it was a case of Bread and Circuses to keep the hoi polloi quiet. To a very large extent, in my view, people were content not to look too closely while they were enjoying the boom days on what trickled down to them and buying shiny beads and mirrors, but without having the sense to reflect that what goes up will inevitably come down; many of those who did put something aside for a rainy day were daft enough to think that the banks were immune to the machinations going on behind the scenes.

Even now, people in Greece moan about the price of their property spiralling downwards but don't care to consider that it quickly became, and still remains, ridiculously high. One hears about people being "forced" to sell the property that they can now longer afford to maintain and about prices "falling" but when I scan the ads on Spitogatos and other sites, I don't see anything that is seriously "priced to sell". Either they're starving while waiting years for a purchaser or there are folk with enough cash under their mattresses to buy houses and pay property taxes!

The so-called government can't seem to control the civil servants that it has (still far too many by all accounts) and they just ignore regulations and rules, while putting invented bureaucratic obstacles in the way of those trying to set up or conduct a business. Everyone knows the "rules": Don't rock the boat or they'll just invent a thousand more impediments, rather than just smiling and doing their f*ing jobs properly in the first place; they certainly don't seem to be in fear of getting fired for incompetence or deliberate obstructionism. It's no wonder that so many Greeks establish businesses, and buy property, in Bulgaria!
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scasparz
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:38 am 
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Do not know much regarding her background seedy, yet the picture I have got differs from yours. In our discussions she appeared to be pro-west and anti-Putin. Of course our discussion has not been published, at least yet, if ever that is.

Now regarding the meltdown, local Banks, whether private or state owned used to benefit from the raised credit rating Greece enjoyed by virtue of having become a eurozone member state, to borrow considerable amounts of money as though this money was not supposed to be paid back, interest plus. In turn, most of this money was distributed to the elites through the so called θαλασσοδάνεια (sea loans literary, in reality meaning loans that are not supposed to be collected back). In the past such loans have been provided only to the shipping magnates, hence their name. However in the past decade, they became available to a much broader range of elites. To obtain a sea loan, the recipient should have to pay a μίζα (miza = commition or bribe), a significant portion of the loan either to the politician -that is in case the Bank used to be state owned- or to high ranking bank officials, eg the owner, who in exchange would arrange for the loan to be provided under extremely favourable terms.

For example Filippides, appointed CEO of the then state owned Post Bank provided a 17million Euro loan to a former school mate from the Athens College, a kind of a local Eaton, with a collateral of only 3 million Euro in assets of dubious value. The recipient of this loan took the money abroad, abandoned whatever collateral he had provided, to make an instant profit of 14million, in a legal way. In a similar fashion, Vgenopoulos, head of the private MIG, used to provide loans to selected customers, for a fee. Currently Philippides has been imprisoned awaiting trial, while Vgenopoulos having lost a lengthy and expensive legal battle that most probably knew he could not have win, died unexpectedly -and very conveniently- just days before he was about to be imprisoned. Or did he not? I do not know.

Most if not all of these loans ended in safe heavens abroad and currently cannot be reached. At the same time, local Banks forwarded a massive scale of consumer loans to the rest of us. They used to contact ordinary people by phone and used to tempt them by offering much smaller sums, just to have them indebted. Can still recall an ad from these days, running on the local TV that went like: "now it is time for everyone to enjoy their coffee by the terrace of the Empire State Building at NY. Take benefit of our holiday-loan." Jesus.

Then central banker Provopoulos -still a free man our times-, used to repeat again and again that "the credit of the Greek households has not been exhausted yet", as though ultimately it was this the requirement. But wasn’t it? In hindsight this looks like a way to convince the masses -after the meltdown-, for the Greek meltdown was not an accident, rather it was a planned one, that it should be the masses to be held accountable for, through their lavish lifestyles which in any case they couldn't afford, rather than the elites that eventually took the lion’s share.

A few weeks ago, AADE, the independent tax collecting authority, that was created on request of the european lenders published the following map of the distribution of debtors in accordance to the money they owned to the state. Figures are official and cannot be disputed. It gets long but is worth reading:

• Up to 10 euros owe 536,330 debtors with a total debt of € 900,000.
• From EUR 10 to 50, 338,072 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 9.8 million.
• From € 50 to € 500, 1,344,749 debtors owed a total debt of € 296.1 million.
• From EUR 500 to EUR 2,000, 944,602 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 917.1 million.
• From EUR 2,000 to 3,000, 190,945 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 468.5 million.
• From € 3,000 to 5,000, you owe 199,765 debtors with a total debt of € 773.4 million.
• From EUR 5,000 to EUR 10,000, 210,589 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 1,475 billion.
• From € 10,000 to € 20,000, 131,016 debtors owe a total debt of € 1,833 billion.
• From EUR 20,000 to EUR 50,000, 91,438 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 2,822 billion.
• From EUR 50,000 to EUR 100,000, 34,367 debtors owe a total debt of 2,390 billion euros.
• From EUR 100,000 to EUR 150,000, 12,283 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 1,494 billion.
• From € 150,000 to € 300,000, 12,557 debtors owe a total debt of € 2,627 billion
• From EUR 300,000 to EUR 1,000,000, 10,003 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 5,295 billion.
• From 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 euros, 1,971 debtors owe a total debt of 2,395 billion euros.
• From EUR 1,500,000 to EUR 10,000,000, 4,810 debtors owe a total debt of EUR 17,866 billion.
• From € 10,000,000 to € 100,000,000, 1,154 debtors owe a total debt of € 29,547 billion.
• Of 100,000,000 and above, 79 debtors owe a total debt of € 34,152 billion.

Just think of it: 79 individuals, each one of them owing in excess of 100 million Euro, collectively owe in excess of 34 billions. The last three categories, some six thousand individuals owe collectively in excess of 80 billions. These have been the debts of our elites. Now had the state been able to recover this money, I guess they could afford to pay the european lenders a good portion of the country’s debt, restart the economy by providing the needed liquidity to the Banks, not to mention I can see no reason for our pensions that we -the rest of us have been paying for all our lives- had to be slashed into pocket money as they have. Yet few Greeks believe seriously this money will ever be collected, for no practical effort was made for the purpose and this under the current 'communist' gov. Which most probably in a few months will be replaced by another one, understood to be 'market friendly'. This is getting farcical, a bad taste joke.

The same table indicates petty borrowers -most of which cannot meet their dues under the current economic stagnation-, practically owe a relatively small portion of money. It is this kind of people that in the end will have to pay by getting squeezed until their bones will be crushed. It is fun to be rich, mate. The overall picture is that in the decade prior to the meltdown, the elites took the fillets, while the rest were provided with a few bones to just lick.

Now regarding the local real-estate market, having lost substantial value in the first years after the meltdown, it currently seems to be under a slow recovery, yet this affects only specific areas within the country and should be attributed to reasons beyond the scope of this post. You should never expect to buy property in Greece at Bulgarian prices and this can be easily justified in terms of the much-much better quality of life Greece is still able to provide, not to mention the much better construction of the Greek properties in comparison with the majority of the BG ones, that can only be classified as slums. In any case, AFAIK Greek real estate prices do not differ considerably from those of comparable properties of the european south and they appear to be very competitive.

As for the bloated civil sector, by the time PASOK -the so called socialists- left office at 2004, the state used to employ about 600 thousands civil servants, already too many. Yet by the time ND -the right wing party- left office at 2009, it was found to employ about 900 thousands of them. I guess figures speak by themselves. Of course this is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

Currently the lenders have enforced a policy to hire one new civil servant for every five to be retired. Taking more drastic measures, such as having made redundant the surplus of civil servants, in a country so badly affected by unemployment would have caused obvious issues and friction. On this, even the lenders, that have not been friendly, have displayed reasonable understanding and IMO this has been a working approach.
  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:57 pm 
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Thank you for that, Mr S.

I was being a little provocative, in the hope of sparking a debate on this almost moribund forum Wink

Yes, the erstwhile Commies here are now "businessmen" and definitely don't like Uncle Vlad - he exercises way too much control on his oligarchs for their taste and he knows way too much about them, what they stole and where it's hidden. Cool In any case, very few of them were real Commies, they just played along to get into a position to lord it over their neighbours; once the system fell, they quickly grabbed what they hadn't already stolen and spent the next few years sweating about whether they'd get the Ceaușescu Treatment, which sadly they didn't. They love the West - there's more to spend their stolen money on there and unlike Greece, at least to an extent, they also own the judges and politicians, and don't bother to pretend otherwise. Amusingly, here in BG Uncle Vlad bankrolls both the "Socialists", ie Commies, and Ataka, the Golden Dawn equivalent; Erdogan funds the DPS and busses in their voters for them from Turkey whenever there's an election.

You'd be surprised how well-built modern buildings can be in the cities here - even the old Commies ones ("panels") were pretty sturdy, albeit they're looking rather shabby and in need of a facelift these days. A lot of old houses in the villages are pretty crappy - not all by any means - and many new ones are pretty good, depending on how much the original owner/builder had to spend on it.

Interestingly, the UK sent through the same situation, credit cards and mortgages being handed out like loukoumi but years before it happened in Greece: I don't know if folks in Greece didn't know what happened in the UK or if they didn't want to know but the lesson was certainly there to be learned if anyone bothered to look.

Being an even older codger than your good self, I well remember decent apartments in Kolonaki going for the drachma equivalent of £10k or so, easily affordable without a bank loan or mortgage. My view is still that the current prices are ridiculous but be that as it may, sellers clearly aren't feeling the pinch enough to drop their prices to what I'd regard as a sensible level that would generate a quick sale, so there still seems to be an element of crying wolf.

Lastly, you might be surprised at how good the standard of living is here if you have a comparatively small income, especially since the government isn't nearly as greedy Wink
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tonytg806
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Seedy wrote:
Thank you for that, Mr S.

I was being a little provocative, in the hope of sparking a debate on this almost moribund forum Wink


I thought you were holding back..... Laughing Laughing Laughing
  
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scasparz
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:39 am 
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Seedy the Greek issues are not due to the commies. Do not like them any more than you do, problem here is Greece has been and is most likely to keep being a failed state. By 2031, it will a couple of centuries since the creation of the contemporary Greek state and yet we do not possess a state, rather a kind of. Reason? Our leadership does not want to have a well run state. They would rather have what we have been given, that suits their profiteering in immunity. They would rather govern through firmans and ukases instead of Laws. It is this what delivers for them.

Then all right, Greek elites sucked the country, but do the people bear responsibilities? Of course they do. Greece has been a democracy since the collapse of the military junta back in ‘74. Everyone knew of the widespread corruption of the two main political formations that have been running the country for decades. And yet everyone -or at least the majority of us- kept voting these same parties, times and times again. Yes we have been brainwashed and manipulated by the media they absolutely control, still this is only a pathetic excuse.

Democracy is still the only political system that provides alternatives, yet we Greeks have failed to take benefit of such an opportunity. Even in a country like Greece where politicians won’t ever be sent to prison for their wrongdoing, they could nevertheless have been sent to their homes, stripped from authority and replaced by others. This could act as a warning to their successors of their fate, should they repeat the same. Alas this has been an opportunity grossly missed.

At this point, looks it is going to take decades for Greece to recover, implying a number of lost generations and widespread misery. Yet in the coming elections, it appears most likely the kleptocrats will seize power again. Am afraid we Greek voters will never learn.
  
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Seedy
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:04 am 
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Mr S - I was referring to the BG Commies, not the even more pathetic Greek ones...although I'd say that a good case can be made for the current "Socialist" government in Greece having been responsible for a lot of the present mess.

If Tsippy hadn't been a typical Commie - talking up a storm and then backing down when it came to actually doing something other than capitulating - Greece would be long out of the Euro and the economy would most likely be in a better state than the current massaged figures are trying to pretend that it's in. He let down everybody who was prepared to vote for him in the hope that his relatively clean hands and airy promises heralded a new era but all he's really done is to make the Old Kleptocrats look less like the clueless buffoons that we all know they are and to ensure that their hands will shortly be back in the till.

It's the same kind of thing that's happening in the UK: the Idiot Farrage and the totally discredited Lib-Dems are about to do well in the polls, courtesy of the "major" parties' disarray and incompetence. However, it won't take long for their shine to fade and for even the densest of UK voters to realise that they have neither policies nor capabilities - then the Same Old, Same Old Crooks will start to look appealing once again and the whole farce will recommence... Sad
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:03 pm 
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IMHO whether Greece would be in better state by not capitulating to the lenders remains in doubt. Most probably we will never know which way would have served the country best. We have seen the outcome of capitulation but we have not seen the consequences of doing the opposite. Can only speculate.

At this point it looks like, Tsipras has his credentials already approved by the lenders by virtue of his capitulation, not to mention the case of Macedonia. All that is left has been to convince the local establishment as well in that he could actually work with them if not for them. In case he manages to do so, his party that used to represent only 3% of the electoral votes until a few years ago, will become a systemic one, sharing power with the local right wingers every now and then.

Is Tsipras still a commie? Well, not sure.

Did never actually believe Tsipras would have his promises delivered. Not for once. My only hope with him had been that perhaps he would manage to free the country from the leeches that have been responsible for the meltdown. Which he did not. As I wrote, they always win. As for me, was naive.

Meanwhile very few of the Greek pathogenies have been dealt with. Lenders have only been interested on tax collection related issues, plus the state balancing their books, the rest have been left for the locals to reform. But in their turn, the locals look unwilling and unprepared for the purpose while reforms are desperately needed. All and all, it is just that Syriza, Tsipras’s party has replaced the discredited PASOK in the Greek bipolar system. His rival Mitsotakis may win the coming elections, still it is far from being certain whether he could survive his term. At which point appears more likely Tsipras will make a comeback. Teflon Tsipras as the Germans call him, is most probably here to stay. Much like the Greek pathogenies will.
  
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